Ep 48 Transcript: Why Every Business Needs a Trademark with Anita Mar

Shauna Lynn Simon (00:02)

Hello and welcome to the Real Women Real Business podcast. I am your host, Shauna Lynn Simon, and I am so excited for today's episode because we've got a brand new topic. We've never covered anything like this before, but I have got Anita Mar with me. She is the trademark angel and that is not putting it lightly by any means, but she is an absolute expert in the trademark field. And we're going to be talking about how trademarks impact your business and how to protect your brand.

So I'm not going to tell you too much about what she's been doing, but I will tell you this, that she has been in trademark law since 1999. This woman knows her stuff. She is an absolute powerhouse in the trademark world. And on top of that, she's a mom. She's got her career. She's got she's exactly everything that we bring on to this podcast. You're absolutely going to love her. So we're going to dive into all things trademark and talk a little bit about how she's built up her business. So Anita, welcome.

Yes. Hello, Shauna. Hello, everyone. Yeah, it's nice to be on this podcast. I love doing podcasts for like women entrepreneurs. I unfortunately don't do a lot of them because they're because we're not we're kind of rare. There's not a lot of us, unfortunately. I've only done like two or three for like women specifically for like women entrepreneurs like like moms. Yeah. But yeah, I don't do a lot of those. But yes, I do a lot of podcasts. And yeah, I'm so delighted to be here.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. You have such a history in this area that you are clearly the expert that I need to tell us all about how to protect our brand. So what got you into trademark law in the first place? What drew you to that? know that when you're dealing with law, you gravitate to one area or another. What was so intriguing about trademarks? Yeah, it was actually an accident. I lived in Israel at that time. I was studying there and I was looking for work.

And I saw that in a newspaper that an American attorney was looking for a trademark paralegal. And there were like three words I didn't know at that time, like attorney, trademark and paralegal. So I had to look them up. Well, not Google, but look them up. And then I immediately applied and that's how I ended up in trademark. So it was a pure accident. Oh, wow. Yeah, but I think that's what I wanted to do. So it was maybe my destiny because I didn't really switch careers after that.

So I just continued and I worked in many law firms until I opened Trademark Angel in 2017. Well, and you're clearly quite passionate about it because you're just an absolute wealth of knowledge when it comes to this. And it's funny, as I was preparing for this episode, I was kind of going through some things in my head and realizing how little I know about trademark law. And I have a trademark, but there's also a lot of things that I don't know, like what's the difference between a TM and an R trademark?

You know, there's also what's the difference? Right nowadays, we're dealing with a lot of intellectual property and people are dealing with copyrights and can they trademark things or should they be copyrighted? And then there's the patents and all these things kind of get all jumbled up. So maybe real quickly, we can just start off with helping our listeners to understand what's the difference. And maybe it's not a quick question to answer, but what is the difference between a trademark, a copyright, a patent, whatever else there is out there? Yeah, so they're all forms of intellectual property called IP in short.

Actually, it's quite simple to differentiate, but yes, I find that people mix them up. I want to patent my trademark. I want to copyright my brand. It's like, I can't, I can't hear this. it's trademark protects the name of your product or the name of your service. It's how your customers find you. It's like a lighthouse that helps your clients to find you. It's like a light in the darkness. So that's the trademark and they last indefinitely. They don't expire.

You can them, but they don't expire. You don't lose a trademark just because you owned it for 20 years. With patents, it's different. They do expire. They've had it for 10 to 20 years, then they do expire. Everyone can produce something similar. The patent protects an invention or an improvement to an existing invention. Nowadays, patents are improvements. Copyright protects creative works like songs, music.

books, photographs, paintings. So anything that you create, like an artist creates, so that's by copyright. And that also expires after the author dies. The copyright will eventually expire, but trademarks are unique in this respect because they're pretty much, they last forever. And so with copyright, I just want to circle back to that for moment because a lot of us are putting a lot of things online in terms of blogs and things like that.

And I'll admit, doing webinars and whatnot, things will say copyright by my company. on my website, it says that I've got the copyright to all those things. Do I have to do anything to actually? Because I'll admit, someone put copyright on my website years ago. And I was like, that looks like a good thing. And I see everybody else has it on their website. Do I need to do anything for that to be valid? Or do I just need to say it's copyrighted by me? Yeah, you can actually register copyright in the US. It does make sense to do that. You can register copyright in Canada as well.

I mean, if you just put the copyright notice, it's a good thing, but it's just like, let's say you put a note or like a banner on your fence that like an angry dog inside. So it's the same. It's just to let your like viewers know that it's protected by copyright, but it doesn't really do anything by itself. It's just a notice really. But it's a good idea to register copyright.

But it can be sometimes tricky to do that if it's been published. yes, definitely a notice is a good idea. OK. And so going back to the trademarks, though, because I think this is where things get really, really sticky for people. I've seen it happen. I worked for 15 years in the home staging industry. as creative as we are when it comes to preparing houses for sale, unfortunately, I see a lot of the same.

business names over and over and over again. There's only so many ways to describe a home staging business. And so I see a lot of very similar names and it's, and I've actually had experiences with people that I know where they're like, well, I got this letter from a lawyer saying I'm no longer allowed to use my company name. So tell me a little bit about what is the benefit of registering a trademark and what are some of the things you mentioned?

You know, there's a business name, a product. Can you you can trademark a service like what is what all can be trademarked and what's the value of doing that? Yeah. So I mean, there are a lot of benefits. And yeah. So you ask like a few questions in one. But sorry. Yeah. I think the biggest benefit is that you don't have to prove your rights anymore. They have been checked by the trademarks office and your trademark is presumed to be distinctive, valid and owned by you.

So there is ever a dispute about a trademark, the burden of proof will lie on the party who challenges the registered trademark. And if it's registered, you don't have to prove those rights. I think another really cool benefit is that when you file for your trademark, it will appear in the official database. So anyone who wants to register a similar trademark, they will check the database, the trademark's office database. And so the trademark will work for you. You don't need to do anything.

When they see your trademark, hopefully they will stay away from this name and will pick a different name. So it's working for you without you having, you you don't have to do anything. And if somebody decides to file a similar trademark, the trademark's office will refuse it because they will see your trademark. It's there. It was filed first. So the second file trademark will be refused. And I think another benefit is that when you sell your business, if you ever sell your business, obviously the value of the assets will be higher.

because your trademark will obviously be very valid and the longer you own it, the more valuable it becomes. And for some instances, like franchising, it's necessary to trademark. Sure. Well, as you were talking there, it kind of got me thinking about all the different things that could and should be trademarked, but then there's also the people who are potentially infringing on trademarks without even realizing it, because you were talking about, well, if you're registered in the database and they can find you, and that's great, but...

I also know that so many people aren't looking. there's value. From the flip side of it, if you're going to name something, whether it's a company, a product, service, a system, something you've come up with, we should be looking at has somebody else already got this trademark? Because I see people who they've trademarked a system or a process of some sort, and they've called it something. And have they done the actual research to see if someone else is already using that term, that phrase, that name for something else? And I think so many people are not

doing that. So from the flip side of it, if I want to create this new service product brand, whatever, and I've come up with a name, how do I figure out whether or not someone has that trademark? You said they're in a database. Can I just access that database? Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, you should decide where you're going to use your trademark. Is it just in Canada, just in the US, or is it a global brand? So depending on the answer, you should check either just Canada and the US database.

or there is also a global database that you can check and then all countries will show up. Obviously it will take some time. What I also like to explain to our clients that, so there are two aspects to this. First of all, if you find a trademark that's already filed and it's in the database, yeah, obviously you should stay away from such a name or similar name. But it's not enough. I mean, when you think about a new trademark, you should also check if there are any other companies who operate under similar name.

And that name may not necessarily be registered, but maybe they use it without registration. So to do this, to check, you need to check Google. So I usually just like to pick the trademark name in Google and go through the first five to 10 pages, just checking what comes up. And if I find, there is a company with a similar name, but they haven't registered their trademark. I mean, is it a good idea to adopt such a name, like a similar name? No, because they don't come with all rights, so stay away.

So check for registered trademarks and check for unregistered trademarks that have been used without the benefit of registration, but they still have common law rights. And so, OK, so let's say that I'm running a company and I haven't registered it as a trademark, but someone comes, I find that someone's popped up in the same area with a similar name to me. I know that happened with a local roofer. I find that actually happens in construction a lot. I see a lot of construction companies in my area with very similar names.

So let's say that, let's say I've got a nail salon and I've called it Shauna Lynn's nail salon and someone else, and maybe I've just called like SL salon or something like that. And someone else has an SL salon and they might not have the name Shauna Lynn, but they've called it SL salon. But I've been operating as SL salon for like 10 years now. And now they've popped up in my area. What's my recourse? What are my options for that? Well, you have to sue them. I mean, if you have prior common law rights, you have to sue the other user.

wow. Have to go to federal court. Pretty much there is no other recourse. With the registered trademark, it's often enough to send a cease and desist letter and the other party will stop. But if I haven't registered them. trademark, you can't really prove your rights. So you can't send a cease and desist letter. You can still send a demand letter saying, well, hey, been using this trademark since 2005.

I know you just started using your trademark, please stop doing this because I was the first user, but that may not be enough because it's just your word against theirs. With the registered trademark, you can say, well, hey, I've been using this trademark since 2005. It was registered in 2020. It's a registered trademark. You have to stop infringing activity immediately or you will be sued. And that usually works. Wow. I mean, that sounds like all the more reason why you should just get the trademark in the first place.

Would you say that anyone starting a business should trademark their company name? Yes and no. Yes, because obviously trademark registration is important. Yeah, let's talk about why yes. If you spend time coming up with your brand name, coming up with your business plan, what you're going to do, you spend time developing a product or maybe you're coming up with a service.

and then you haven't bothered to trademark your business and somebody else filed for your trademark after you, you you just neglected to do that. I mean, would you be upset if somebody else decided to trademark your name? Yes, you would be because the only way for you to stop them would be to file a trademark opposition. It will definitely be more expensive than if it were to trademark your brand in the first place.

So yes, it will be more expensive. If we talk about, you know, trademarking your brand in the first place, maybe it's a thousand dollars. If you have to stop somebody, it's like $10,000 more, like $10,000 or more. it's talking about different, you know, and maybe much more. Well, you have to rebrand and it's also no, because sometimes a name is not really registrable. Sometimes a name isn't.

really good. It's a weak name. It's just generic. So there is nothing to trademark sometimes. It's too early because we have a lot of clients who come to us, but they don't really know what they're going to do. Like they know they want to open a business. They want to sell something on Amazon. When I asked them like, what exactly are you going to sell? They say, it's kitchen products or like home products. Like what kind of products? I don't know yet. I will decide later.

But we can't trademark them because we don't know what is going to be protected. Right. Why it may be not a good idea to file a trademark when you don't have a solid business plan. Well, unfortunately, then I tell them, you know what, you have to go back to the drawing board, you know, know, prepare a business plan, tell us like what you're going to do and then we can definitely help you.

And that's interesting that you're saying that because, yeah, so let's, because I know you work with a lot of Amazon sellers and so that's an interesting, unique business as well. A lot of times these sellers are operating in multiple countries potentially and they've got, like they might have one product, they might have 15 products, they might have a hundred products and trying to understand like what it is that they need to protect themselves. And let's face it on Amazon, if I'm searching for something that I want to buy, like,

20 other items that are identical are going to come up. They all went to a particular country, let's just say, and bought the same item, probably from the same supplier, slapped their logo or brand name on it, and called it a day. But probably there's a lot of them that are on Amazon that aren't trademarking and protecting themselves in that way. So what's the value in someone coming to you and saying, hey, I've got this Amazon store that I'm opening here, and I need to be trademarked? Because I know you're saying they need to have a plan.

What is the greatest value for them to do that? Because I mean, it doesn't prevent other people from selling similar products on their website. It's a great question because actually you have to do this nowadays because without a trademark, you cannot sell on Amazon and pretty much you cannot sell on Shopify and Walmart, like TikTok. So a trademark is necessary to sell on Amazon and to have your own store that has your own name.

Otherwise you will be selling like under a generic brand. So it will have no name. It will be generic brand and you will not have a lot of success when you sell under a generic brand. So you cannot customize your listing. cannot add like pictures, videos. It will not be a very attractive listing and the sales will not be very high.

So it's essential to trademark. But so when you, when you do find a trademark, you, you, you enroll in the brand registry. So, so-called brand registry. So Amazon gives you additional benefits and it's almost a prerequisite nowadays. And I think everyone who sells on Amazon, I mean, that's why they come to us because their coach tells them you have to file a trademark. So they come to us, but sometimes they're unprepared because they don't know what exactly they're going to sell. So that's like a different problem. And yes, as you said, there are lots of,

sellers from China who pretty much they will recreate any successful product and they will sell it cheaper. it's, it's, it's difficult to succeed on the Amazon, I would say, but okay. So let's go back to the basics, whether they're on Amazon or somewhere else. What is the process if, they've identified, okay, yes, I believe I need a trademark for this particular product service company name, whatever it is.

How do they get started on that? Do they do a search first and then come and find you? Do they come and find you and you do all of that? And then how long do things take? I mean, again, I know there's a lot of questions in there, but I'm just trying to figure out like, exactly does this look like kind of start to finish for someone? How quickly can they get something like this done? What's going to cost them? Yeah, I would say the sequence should be as follows. First of all, you can go on the website. It's called Name Check. It's a name and then CHK. Don't ask me why they missed out on E. So name check.

And you can put your proposed brand name or trademark name. It's the same brand and trademark and see what comes up. what if it's taken because it will show you all social media handles if they're available like Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, etc. It will show you the domain names and it will also do the basic trademark search for you. And it's all in one place and it's free. So it's amazing. I I strongly recommend it.

Like if you see that, yes, it's good, it's available. I would strongly recommend to take the social media handles immediately. So register an account under this proposed trademark name, get a domain name. I mean, it's cheap. Don't wait until you file a trademark. And then a client can come to us and we can do like an initial search for free. And then if it's available, if a trademark is available, then we can start the filing process.

Social media handles and domain name, that's the first step. Well, first step. But I love that you said that because it's so true. A few years ago, I was rebranding one of the divisions of my company, the interior design division, breaking it off into its own company. And I didn't necessarily go so far as trademarking it, but I did register the business name. But once I had it narrowed down to four business names, I bought all four domain names. And I let.

Three of them expire, of course, but I was still deciding on which one I wanted. And I didn't want to lose the opportunity to use one of the particular names in the meantime. So I just registered all four of them. And I grabbed the social media handles and just ran with it all before ever registering the business. And it's so, I love that you've mentioned this because so many people said, well, I want to register the business before I start grabbing like domain names and social media handles and everything else. Well, you can always release these things if you need to.

grab them while you can because if you wait and then yeah, someone else has scooped it up in the meantime, that whole trademark process is kind of useless. So I love that you've mentioned that those are the first steps to take to social media handles and domains. And it does happen a lot actually. We found this when our clients tell us, I didn't buy the domain name and then I was about to buy it two weeks later and it was taken by somebody. And yes, think it's actually done on purpose maybe.

Are they hunting for these names that have been checked? I don't know, but yes, it actually happens. I don't know why people don't do this immediately. I think it's like procrastination. People like to procrastinate. Right. And I think it feels like a bigger commitment than it actually is. I when I started my first business, it was back in 2008 and there was a fraction of the number of websites that exist today. So I probably could have waited months, possibly even years and never had to worry about my domain name being taken. But nowadays,

I don't know what the actual numbers are, but the number of domain names that are bought on a daily basis is obscene. The number of websites that exist now compared to 2008 when I started my company is unreal. So it is a very different landscape these days. So yeah, I think it's so important that you do not wanna have to go, you've gone through all the effort of building this brand, creating this business plan. Sometimes you've even designed a logo at this point.

And now you have to scrap all of that because you can't get the right domain name. And even if you can, and like it's a whole other topic talking about domain names, but here's what I will say. Do not try to grab a domain name that has the dashes in it or is dot something that's not a dot com that you're like, but this is okay. Unless it's specific, like there are ones that are dot video that makes sense for certain video companies. But unless you're in that realm, don't just randomly try to grab another domain name just because it kind of sort of fits in with your name. If you can't get a solid domain name,

you've got to find something else, period. Yeah. Okay, so now they've registered their domain name, they've got their social media handles. Now what's the next step? Well, then they should do the initial Trademarks Office database check or we can do this. And after that, when our client is ready to file, we, well, there are a few questions we ask them. Like, first of all, who will be the trademark owner? Is it going to be you personally?

or do you have a company that will own a trademark? At that point, many clients don't know what to say. Yeah. As you're saying that, I'm actually thinking to myself, do I own my trademark or does my company own my trademark? I actually can't even answer that question. I think my company does, but what is the right answer and how do you know what the right answer is? Well, there is no right answer. It's all about your business strategy. Let's say if you have a company and you have a partner who you don't trust,

you maybe, you know, maybe you want to own the trademark personally. If you have a partner who you trust or you're the only owner in this company, you're the only shareholder or the only member in the LLC, it doesn't really matter who owns the trademark. The only thing that may be relevant is that when you file a trademark personally, your name citizenship will appear in the trademarks office database, as well as the address. Some people don't like that. So when you file your company name, your personal details are hidden. don't

appear anywhere. And for this reason, I usually recommend to file in a company name if there is a company. OK. And so let's say that I've done something in the company name. So I've trademarked a service that I offer. I've done it under the company. And now I'm selling the company, but I want to keep that particular service. Can I still take that out of the company, or do I have to sell it with the company? Well, it's your choice. You can transfer the trademark to you personally. So it's called a trademark assignment. It can be done quite easily.

Okay. Or you can, you know, you can sell your company assets together with a trademark. Usually that's what people do. Sure. I can't imagine why if it's a good service and that's part of what's made your company successful. I don't know why you wouldn't sell it with the company. Yeah, exactly. I don't think that will happen then, but sometimes, you know, sometimes there is like a restructuring process or maybe you want to set up a new company and you need to transfer the trademark. So you can do this. It's like an asset. It's like, it's like an asset. It can be purchased. It can be bought. can be transferred.

So it's not a problem to do that. And we were talking about the things that are necessary to file. So it's also important to file for the correct products or services because what most people don't really realize is that a trademark doesn't give you an absolute monopoly. So you don't just own the name for everything. It doesn't work like that. So you own your trademark for specific products that you sell or for specific services that you offer.

So you can't just say, I want this trademark and no one is allowed to touch it for anything else because I own it. So you have to know what you're going to do. Like what's your niche? Like what's your market? Like what your business is all about? Right. Yeah. And I, so from my experience, I trademarked a service. The name of the service is relatively, I don't want to say generic, but it's not like, it wasn't like a word that I made up there. It's two English words that make up this service.

And so I had to define specifically what was included in that service for it to be called that. So someone else can technically use that same service name as long as they're not doing exactly what I was providing under my umbrella. And that was challenging of like, had a whole, and don't get me wrong, the service was really well-defined. I had a whole checklist of exactly what it included, but it was a little nerve wracking to think, well, what if I'm missing something or like how it's so easy for someone else?

to circumvent that and use my name for something similar, but not quite the same thing, sort of. But technically similar doesn't quite, like they're still technically not supposed to use something similar if I'm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think you're safe because when you file a trademark, you put your products or services in a specific class. Exactly. it's like a global product. So no one should be able to register a similar trademark in the same class.

So you should be safe and the trademark's office checks for that. They check for like likelihood of confusion. So it's not like black and white, okay, it's a different trademark. So yes, it's allowed to register. No, it's about like likelihood of confusion, how likely that customer is likely to be confused or misled that the source of the service is the same. So when they look at the second trademark, like, are they going to be misled? I mean, will they think that it's the same service that they saw like before?

If there is some likelihood of confusion, yes, the trademark will be refused. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, this is something too that I did work with someone to do it to my understanding and correct me I'm wrong on this, to my understanding, technically someone could do the trademark themselves without working through a company. But I remember from my experience, the nuances to it, the little details of all these things that you're talking about.

Why would I ever want to do that myself? Like it is so much work. So you help to guide your clients, I'm sure through this process to make sure they're checking all the right boxes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, I think you can do anything yourself. I mean, we built a house ourselves in Canada. It took us five years instead of the promised one year. But yes, we did it ourselves. And I actually regret that we did it ourselves because it took so much energy time.

to do this and like resources. Going back, probably I should have paid somebody. But yes, you can do anything yourself. If the question is how much time are you willing to spend on this? And then like, how much is your hour worth? So that's it's all. I mean, if you see that, okay, I'm willing to spend, because you'll need about 20 hours to learn the process. So calculate that by, okay, let's say my hourly rate is like, I don't know.

Is it $10? Or is it like $20? So you do the math and you see, okay, so it will be, I will have to spend, if it's $20, like $400. Maybe I should pay somebody to do it right. Or maybe- Absolutely. If my hourly rate is really low, maybe I should do it myself. I mean, if I'm just beginning, I really don't have the money. It's better to file a trademark yourself than not file it at all. Fair enough. Yeah. And I like that you've said that, but at the same time, I will say that most-

people listening to this podcast are busy entrepreneurs that have much better things to do. And even if the money's not necessarily rolling in, it's always the opportunity cost of those 20 hours that you're spending registering your trademark. Sure, maybe you're like, I'm not really doing anything else anyway, but could you have spent 20 hours getting new clients then getting that business that you need to build and grow? If you don't think that you can spend that time doing that, then yeah, maybe you might as well spend it on on trademarking instead. But it's about making sure that you're aligning where you're

you're putting your own time and resources. And frankly, I look at most people who listen to this podcast are an expert in their field in some way and are expecting people to hire them for their expertise. So it always shocks me when I find that they're not willing to hire someone else for their expertise. So we're our own worst enemies sometimes as experts really well, I'm an expert in this, but I'm not an expert in this other thing. So why am I doing it myself? No, I like to hire people.

to do the work for me to make my life easier. It's the reason why you hire someone to clean your house. It's the reason why you hire someone else to do your social media if that's not your strength. Like there are reasons why we've become this sort of outsourcing of society because we have identified that gone are the days where everyone needs to know how to do everything themselves. So I'd be more inclined to come you because you also, operate internationally, right? So if I come to you in a, so you and I are both based in Canada.

I know a lot of the listeners are in North America. There are some overseas as well. But basically, anyone listening to this episode can come to you, and you're able to assist them, correct? Absolutely, yeah. Whether it's in Canada, US, or China, or pretty much anywhere else, we can definitely register there. I mean, we don't register in every country. I mean, we filed maybe handful of trademarks in Africa, for example. Most of our trademarks are in North America, South America, Asia, and Europe, and Australia.

But yes, I would say a majority of our clients file in the US, Canada, European Union, Australia, and then like China, South Korea, United Arab Emirates. So those countries are very popular. OK, so especially if I've got an online brand and maybe I'm based in the US, should I also be making sure that I'm trademarking that brand in Canada, in the UK, and other countries? Yes, potentially, yes, because what you should

look at, you should look at like where are my clients coming from? So that's like a very important question. But initially it's enough to file a trademark in your home country and then you have up to six months to file on other countries and claim priority from the initial filing date. So you can postpone filing in other countries and you can see how my business is going, like where are my clients coming from, what other country is important to them and you get up to six months to decide and then let's say

Let's say if you file in the U.S., let's say on January 20, so you can delay to file in Canada until July 20, and your real filing date will still be January 20 when you file on July 20. Okay. It's really cool, but you can't wait for more than six months if you want to claim priority. Okay. it also buys you time to decide like, okay, what's my target market? Like who are my clients? Rediction is important to file in.

Yeah, that's what our clients usually do. We recommend, you know, if you have a budget for one trademark, file your home country and then within six months, let's reconsider if we need to file an additional jurisdictions. Okay. So let's say I've started my business in the U.S. and I'm thinking I'm mostly going to be servicing people in the U.S. but now someone from Canada has given me a call and a lot of us, you know, we are doing Zoom calls like this for consulting and whatnot. So someone in Canada has now called me. So now I'm starting to think, okay, I might actually

want to do some work in Canada as well. So I've already registered in the US. Can I just promote myself in Canada using that same trademark then, or do I have to actually file in Canada? No, you don't have to file a trademark in Canada. I there is no legal requirement to register your trademark. But I mean, it makes sense to do that. Right. If you filed in the US first, but the applicant is Canadian, you cannot claim priority. So you have to file in your home country first.

but you can still file in Canada as long as this name is not taken there. So it's a good idea to register in Canada because the registration process in Canada takes a very long time. So the earlier you file, the earlier the trademark will register. Okay. So out of curiosity, when you say a very long time, approximately, I know it probably varies depending on various factors, but if someone were to file a trademark today, approximately how long can they expect to wait before they can actually say that it's done? Yeah, I would say

Two and a half to four years. Oh my goodness. Oh wow. Like I feel like, so I got my trademark, I think it was around 2015 that I got mine. It's about 10 years ago now. And so much faster back then. So yeah, like it was, I want to say weeks and I was thinking like, oh, you're to say two and a half to three months or something like that. No years, years. So what do they do in the meantime? Can they...

they can't claim to be a registered trademark in that time then they have to wait until. No, but you get the application number. So your trademark will appear in the database. Okay. Pretty much immediately you can use your trademark. You cannot put R in the circle because it's not registered, but you will have, well, pretty much a dependent trademark. But yes, unfortunately there is like a huge backlog. I think COVID didn't help. Well, they're trying to clear the backlog. Right.

Okay, so that's in Canada. Is that similar in other countries like the US or maybe the UK? No. So if I'm going to file a trademark in the US, how long am I waiting there? I would say 14 to 18 months. Europe is about four months. Okay. All other countries are like about a year. Wow, that's interesting. I think most people wouldn't even thought about that. like, I mean, and I get what you're saying of once they've registered it, they're in the queue, so to speak, like they're first in line.

it's going to come up in searches. So it's important to do it sooner than later. But if they actually want to be able to put that little registered R symbol on something, they've got to wait until they've actually received. Yes, unfortunately, you cannot really enforce your trademark. You cannot send a cease and desist letter. It's not a registered trademark. So if you plan to sell your business, it doesn't really have a lot of value because it's not registered. But yes, unfortunately, in Canada, it's like that. But the good thing is that

while everyone goes through the same process. And the second good thing is that you can actually expedite registration in Canada and it works really well. But you have to have a good reason. let's say, so there is a competitor who came up with the same name and they, you're really losing sales. Or let's say, so you're trying to sue somebody because somebody has taken your trademark.

after you started using yours. So you can actually register in Canada and you can register your trademark. I think the fastest registration we got was about six months from filing, which is pretty amazing for Canada. Yeah. So if you have a registered trademark and you can then claim trademark infringement, can sell your business, you can send cease and desist letters. So yes, there is a way to expedite registration. Yeah. And I mean, you say I...

I like what you're talking about. You've mentioned a couple of times about selling the business. And I think this is something that if you're thinking you're going to sell the business in the next couple of years, but you want to have some extra assets, you have some things that you've really kind of nailed down, you've been using for years, where you're like, maybe I should register this before selling it, like start the process now basically and give you a call. I think the biggest problem is that our clients don't realize how long it takes. It's not like...

company name registration or business registration, domain name registration, so much longer and it's a much more involved process. So yes, you have to start in advance. Oh, wow. OK, so this is all fantastic information. But I also, you've built such an impressive business. I want to take just a moment to talk about that a little bit. How did you, so you mentioned that how you got into trademarking in the first place.

and then you started your own business. Tell me a little bit about what that journey has looked like for you. Yes, I was actually on maternity leave. I was working for a law firm back then and I was on maternity leave. We just moved to Windsor actually. My hometown for anyone who's not aware. Yeah, yeah. And I was on maternity leave and I was like really bored and I was thinking, okay, maybe it's time for me to try starting my own business.

pretty much in doing trademarks, but I was so afraid it would fail. So I decided to use this month leave to try because I could always go back. So I had this in the back of my head. Okay, I'm just trying. I mean, I won't tell anyone, but it actually took off and went, well, I can't say really well, but it went like quite well. So I decided not to come back. And unfortunately I lost my, you know, the payments. benefits. So.

That wasn't good, but the good thing is that it actually gave me courage to try and start my own business because I don't think otherwise I would have done this. Well, and I think it's clearly worked out really well for you. You've built just a phenomenal business. It's super impressive all that you've done. And you've got, how many kids have you got now at home? I have three boys.

And what are the age ranges approximately? Because I think people need to understand how busy you are right now. Yeah, it's 14, 13, and seven. Yeah, so that's a pretty busy household while running your own business. I mean, it's so impressive. So many female entrepreneurs, I'm sure, are listening to this and thinking like, is a lot. You've started this trade-breaking business, and you were telling me off air that you actually homeschool the three boys as well. And so you've got your hands full at home, and yet you still built this phenomenal business. What would you say?

I know I'm not allotted a lot of time to this, but building a business like this, a trademark law type business, it's a niche, it's something that you've got to go and find your clients. What would you say has been the biggest thing that's led to your success? What's the one thing that you've done? I know, I hate when someone's like, what's the one thing that you've Well, it's never one thing, but very briefly, what's something that you've done that's really helped to...

to succeed. Yes. Oh, I can tell you, I think I very early, like when I started my business, I think the second month, I hired somebody to help me. So I learned to delegate and I actually learned to delegate. Well, a lot of things. I mean, I obviously still check everything, but I learned to delegate most of the tasks that can be actually taught. So the sooner you learn to delegate, you can pretty much clone yourself and you can have more time working like.

on the business, how to develop, how to grow the business rather than on day-to-day tasks that pretty much repeat and they can be done by other people. I mean, you can still oversee. mean, I still check and oversee. But when you do those like day-to-day tasks yourself, you don't grow. I have a very good friend, she's a lawyer. When I opened my own business,

she was already working for herself for I think about 10 years and she was talking about, I have to hire somebody. And she couldn't do that because she thought, I'd rather do it myself. It's quicker for me. I don't have time to teach somebody. Now, all these years later, she's still by herself and she's drowning as usual. She's like, I'm drowning. I don't have time. said, you have to learn to delegate. No, I can't because I mean, can't explain these things. I mean, no one can do it better than me.

And it's just so fun. That is really powerful because you're absolutely right. You will stunt your own growth if you don't learn how to delegate. If you want to stay small and play small, then fine, keep it all to yourself. But I grew my team very early on as well. And it literally allowed me to be able to do the things that I needed to be able to do, to be able to offload certain tasks. And sure, we've gone through some challenges over the years. And I know some people are a little bit

shy in terms of hiring. And that's a whole other topic to get into getting the right people and everything else. But the reality is that if you get the right people onto your team, that is the first step. Just like with anything, it's not about just putting a random job posting out there, grabbing the first person who raises their hand and says, hey, I'll help you out. But you get the right people, you train them properly. They will help you grow your business. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't micromanage my team. I believe in my

Of course. Why would you hire them otherwise? Yeah. Yeah. People are smart. you, for some reason, I find that a lot of like entrepreneurs who start, think that they're the smartest people. No one can do their job the same way or better than they do, but it's actually so wrong. I mean, there are so many smart people. You just have to believe in them and you don't, you don't micromanage them. You give them, you know, the opportunity to show themselves. And I think it just, it will work out just fine, but you have to actually have this trust in people in the first place.

Beautiful. I love that. So listen, if someone wants to find you and get some help with registering their trademark or their copyright or their patent or whatever it is that they've got that they want to protect for protecting their brand, what's the best way for them to find you? Yeah. So they should go to trademarkangel.com and ask for a free trademark search. And yeah, we'll be delighted to do the initial search for free. And then an initial consultation is also free. No strings attached. to see if we...

each other, if we can work together. Yeah, I like working with clients who I, you know, I know I like them because you don't always, it's not always like a fit. it's important to know, am I the right person for them? Are we the right company for them? Maybe not. So let's talk and see if it works. That's perfect. So there's no obligation to get started, but if they do want to work with you, if they mentioned this podcast, they'll get 10 % off. Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love it.

Podcast mentioned Shauna and you will get 10 % off. Amazing. Well, Anita, thank you so much for joining me today. If there's one thing out of everything that we talked about today that the listeners can take with them and put into action today, what's that one thing that you would say you want them to take from this episode? Well, protect your trademark early. Don't wait. Don't delay. I think given the timelines that you've explained here, I think that came through loud and clear. So think that's perfect.

Amazing. Anita, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure. you. listen, everyone, if you are enjoying what you're hearing today, don't forget to hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. And as always, if you know someone that you think that they need this episode in their life, they need to benefit from this, please share it with them. That's the best way that you can support us and your fellow female entrepreneurs. Until next time, keep thriving.